HTM GTL8 tram

General discussions

Moderator: senjer

Post Reply
User avatar
Sjoerd
Posts: 5676
Joined: 26 Dec 2014, 21:14
Location: Alphen aan den Rijn

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by Sjoerd »

NJTFAN1235! wrote: 15 Mar 2024, 20:04 Retro tram lines? Why are they named "retro" even though they are tram lines of such? Trams are common.
The Prague tramlines mentioned use these trams: https://dopravnispony.s18.cdn-upgates.c ... eklama.jpg
These are not modern trams. They are old generation trams, saved for museum and touristic purposes.
Just like in The Hague, you will only find PCC trams in the museum (including sunday tours on the network, with the museum as start/end location; https://haagsetrams.com/pcc/pccdag2016.html), and on the touristic "hop-on hop-off" tour (https://touristtram.nl/home-touristtram-the-hague-eng/).

Update on the GTL8 tram: The interior lighting has now been installed in all variants.
No word yet on the information I requested for the Hoftrammm variant, so perhaps I should proceed based on the pictures I have found.

Note; in about two years, the last GTL8 trams will also go out of service, and those could very soon after that also be seen as 'retro', with just one or two left, saved in the museum... :D
CEO of the Rijndam Electrical Transport company :D
User avatar
brozma
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 16:27
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by brozma »

NJTFAN1235! wrote: 15 Mar 2024, 20:04 Retro tram lines? Why are they named "retro" even though they are tram lines of such? Trams are common. Im not a European person... I need more info to complete this.
It's because of the rolling stock used on those lines. The rolling stock on retro lines was used on regular lines in the past, but it was either reconstructed or completely retired. For example the retro line 23 is usually served by Tatra T3 in their OG appearance and with their OG equipment. The rest of the Tatra T3 fleet was reconstructed, but it's still used untill nowadays.

Here are differences between OG Tatra T3 and it's reconstructed counterpart.

1st: OG Tatra T3 uses electromechanical motor-generator to convert 600V DC from the catenary to the lower voltages used by additional equipment, like interior lights, onboard computer for announcer and switch control, back-up battery, etc. (output ranges from 6V DC to 48 V DC). It also has a fan mechanically connected to it, which cools down the rheostatic controller (see bellow), because of this fan, the motor-generator is a vital part of the tram. If the tram loses power or motor-generator malfunctions, the driver is usually warned about this by a buzzer going off, and has to be careful with accelerating (only if the motor-generator malfunctions , but the tram still has power) or with EDB braking.
Reconstructed Tatra T3 uses semi-conductor reduction circuitry to reduce the voltage.

2nd: OG Tatra T3 uses rheostatic controller (also called "accelerator", in Czech "zrychlovač") to control the power output, which was copied from PCC trams. This rheostatic controller is cooled by a fan mechanically connected to the motor-generator, which I already mentioned above. This rheostatic controller is also prone to malfunctions, especially if the driver accelerates or brakes very sharply. The very common malfunction was false contact, which was caused by the switchplate being welded in "on" position, due to current surge.
Reconstructed Tatra T3 uses high-voltage, high-current IGBT transistors to control the power output.

3rd: OG Tatra T3 uses carboard signs to show the tram line, which is serving and the terminal station, where it ends, and a sign which is placed on the right side of the tram, showing a summary of the stations on the line served by the tram. The sign showing a tram line is placed above the driver's cabin and it's a navy blue sign with the white number, showing the number of the tram line. The sign showing a terminal station is placed between the back of the dashboard and the windshield, and it's a white sign (orange sign, if the served line is diverted due to trackworks) with dark blue borders on each sides (black borders, if the sign is orange), with a blue text (black text, if the sign is orange) telling the name of the terminal station. The sign on the right side of the tram is placed next to the middle door, and it's a white sign (orange sign, if the if the served line is diverted due to trackworks) with a blue text (black text, if the sign is orange) showing a number of the served line and the summary of stations served by the line (bold text for terminal stations, italic text if the stations are on the diverted route, and the the logo of the Prague metro next to the station's name, if the passengers can tranfer to metro from the said station).
Note: On line 23, the side signs are secured to their holder using a padlock. This is because of the insubordinate tram enthusiasts, who had a cheek to take the side sign from it's holder and flee from the tram at the next station, taking the sign with him/her as a souvenir.
Reconstructed Tatra T3 uses digital signs. One above the driver's cabin, showing a line number and the terminal station. If the line is diverted, the arrow bent upward and then downward, is shown next to the line's number. If the passengers can transfer to the metro at the terminal station the logo of the Prague metro is shown next to the name of the terminal station. And a one digital sign on the side next to the middle door, also showing the line number (without the mentioned arrow, if the line is diverted) and showing the terminal station on the upper half and the next station on the lower half. In both cases (the terminal station and the next station) a logo of the Prague metro is shown next to the station's name, if the passengers can transfer to metro from those stations.

4th: Reconstructed Tatra T3 has buttons close to the doors, which allow passengers to open the doors, either directly (if the tram is standing still at the station) or notifying the driver about someone wanting to get off (if the tram is going or it's standing still, but it's not at the station. This system allows for some stations to be on request. That means the tram will pass through the said station, if no one is standing on the station's platform or if no one presses the button to get off. Passengers are usually notified about this fact by the announcer, which will play a single vibraphone ding and says "The next station is on request."
OG Tatra T3 has no buttons at all, and drivers of these trams has to open the doors manually and always stop at stations on request, because there's no way to tell the driver, you want to get off at the station on request. Speaking with the driver directly is prohibited to prevent accidents, and it's impossible, if the trams are two trams coupled together and you're in the rear tram, because the rear tram is non-manned and driven remotely from the front tram.
Note: both versions of Tatra T3 has the ability to open the only front door. This is usually used when the switch is set incorrectly and it doesn't flip automatically, so the driver can get out and flip the switch manually.
If you want to make a very fast ride, just disable ATB/ZUB, put trottle to 1.00 and enjoy.
In my Avatar is a Logo of a Prague metro.
Sorry for my bad English. I am Czech and i am learning English
User avatar
brozma
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 16:27
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by brozma »

Sjoerd wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 18:59
The Prague tramlines mentioned use these trams: https://dopravnispony.s18.cdn-upgates.c ... eklama.jpg
These are not modern trams. They are old generation trams, saved for museum and touristic purposes.
Exactly Sjoerd! To describe those trams in the picture, the tram in the foreground is a Ringhoffer tram in a motorcar - trailercar consist and the trams on the background is the pair of OG Tatra T3 trams. I already described the difference between the OG Tatra T3 and it's reconstructed counterpart in my previous post.
Sjoerd wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 18:59 Just like in The Hague, you will only find PCC trams in the museum (including sunday tours on the network, with the museum as start/end location; https://haagsetrams.com/pcc/pccdag2016.html), and on the touristic "hop-on hop-off" tour (https://touristtram.nl/home-touristtram-the-hague-eng/).
Wow! :shock: Looks like the Prague transport company wasn't the only one, who thought about using it's old trams for retro tram lines and retro rides.
Sjoerd wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 18:59 Update on the GTL8 tram: The interior lighting has now been installed in all variants.
No word yet on the information I requested for the Hoftrammm variant, so perhaps I should proceed based on the pictures I have found.
Glad to hear it. Keep it up! And about the Hoftrammm, keep searching and asking for more info. Maybe you'll get lucky and find something, you can use. ;)
Sjoerd wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 18:59 Note; in about two years, the last GTL8 trams will also go out of service, and those could very soon after that also be seen as 'retro', with just one or two left, saved in the museum... :D
Yeah yeah. This was already mentioned in the first post on this topic and Michiel also mentioned it in one post. I also hope, those museum trams will be operable so they can go out for a retro ride, if an opportunity shows up.
If you want to make a very fast ride, just disable ATB/ZUB, put trottle to 1.00 and enjoy.
In my Avatar is a Logo of a Prague metro.
Sorry for my bad English. I am Czech and i am learning English
User avatar
RotterdamMetroLover
Posts: 729
Joined: 23 Jan 2017, 15:21
Location: Somewhere in this blue world.

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by RotterdamMetroLover »

brozma wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 19:42 Yeah yeah. This was already mentioned in the first post on this topic and Michiel also mentioned it in one post. I also hope, those museum trams will be operable so they can go out for a retro ride, if an opportunity shows up.
I'm afraid that these trams will not be operational after they will go out of service. They will be saved though. That because they want to increase the voltage on the overhead lines from 600V to 750V when these trams will go out of service. The PCC trams will have their transformers rebuild, so that these trams can run on 750V. The GTL8 however, it has thyristor drive and that's very expensive to rebuild them.
NJTFAN1235!
Posts: 215
Joined: 16 Apr 2023, 15:30

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by NJTFAN1235! »

brozma wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 19:21
NJTFAN1235! wrote: 15 Mar 2024, 20:04 Retro tram lines? Why are they named "retro" even though they are tram lines of such? Trams are common. Im not a European person... I need more info to complete this.
It's because of the rolling stock used on those lines. The rolling stock on retro lines was used on regular lines in the past, but it was either reconstructed or completely retired. For example the retro line 23 is usually served by Tatra T3 in their OG appearance and with their OG equipment. The rest of the Tatra T3 fleet was reconstructed, but it's still used untill nowadays.
Hmm, T3? Eh? Reminds me of Route 15, a heritage tram in Philadelphia. Obviously PCC-IIs are on the line, but as of right now, SEPTA had a idea and replaced them with Buses.. (PS, I'm a fan of SEPTA :D, so don't chase me for loving SEPTA or else :evil:.) I am watching you.
Last edited by NJTFAN1235! on 22 Mar 2024, 12:26, edited 2 times in total.
NJTFAN1235!
Posts: 215
Joined: 16 Apr 2023, 15:30

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by NJTFAN1235! »

Sjoerd wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 18:59
NJTFAN1235! wrote: 15 Mar 2024, 20:04 Retro tram lines? Why are they named "retro" even though they are tram lines of such? Trams are common.
The Prague tramlines mentioned use these trams: https://dopravnispony.s18.cdn-upgates.c ... eklama.jpg
These are not modern trams. They are old generation trams, saved for museum and touristic purposes.
Just like in The Hague, you will only find PCC trams in the museum (including sunday tours on the network, with the museum as start/end location; https://haagsetrams.com/pcc/pccdag2016.html), and on the touristic "hop-on hop-off" tour (https://touristtram.nl/home-touristtram-the-hague-eng/).

Update on the GTL8 tram: The interior lighting has now been installed in all variants.
No word yet on the information I requested for the Hoftrammm variant, so perhaps I should proceed based on the pictures I have found.

Note; in about two years, the last GTL8 trams will also go out of service, and those could very soon after that also be seen as 'retro', with just one or two left, saved in the museum... :D
Wow! Prague has a losh darn lots of tram lines, how many are there? in Philadelphia, there are 6 tram lines in our city. Also, nice job on the project. I've always wondered to myself about these. You did a spectacular job making these!
User avatar
RotterdamMetroLover
Posts: 729
Joined: 23 Jan 2017, 15:21
Location: Somewhere in this blue world.

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by RotterdamMetroLover »

NJTFAN1235! wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 21:36
Hmm, T3? Eh? Reminds me of Route 15, a heritage tram in Philadelphia. Obviously PCC-IIs are on the line, but as of right now, SEPTA replaced them with Buses..
CKD Tatra T3. ;) It was based on the PCC, but for the eastern part of europe back before the 1990s.
User avatar
brozma
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 16:27
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by brozma »

RotterdamMetroLover wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 20:42 I'm afraid that these trams will not be operational after they will go out of service. They will be saved though. That because they want to increase the voltage on the overhead lines from 600V to 750V when these trams will go out of service. The PCC trams will have their transformers rebuild, so that these trams can run on 750V. The GTL8 however, it has thyristor drive and that's very expensive to rebuild them.
Oh, that's sad. It looks like the BN company (the manufacturer of GTL8 trams) didn't plan ahead, unlike Tatra Smíchov which planned ahead and, beginning with Tatra T3 in the 70s, it added a small tweak to it's trams meant for Prague, which allows Tatra trams to withstand 750 V DC without getting damaged. It's because in the 70s and the 80s, the Prague transport company planned to raise the voltage in the tram network, beggining with that time already existing, tram expressway between Braník and Modřany districts, and with the voltage raise was counted for in the early concepts of tram expressway between Hlubočepy and Barrandov districts. But after 1989, the Prague transport company started doubting, if the voltage raise is worth doing for economical reasons. And I believe, the idea about raising the voltage was eventually scrapped entirely, because the trams made by Skoda Transportation don't have any tweaks to withstand 750V DC, and if you connect these trams to 750 V DC, either their overvolt protection trips, or they'll get fried up.

Fact: Not only Tatra T3 has the tweak to withstand 750V DC. Even the later Tatra tram series meant for Prague have it as well. For example Tatra KT8D5 and Tatra T6A5 have it. And both Tatra T3 and Tatra KT8D5 didn't lose this tweak during reconstruction. I believe the reason why it was preserved was the fact, the plans to reconstruct both Tatra T3 and Tatra KT8D5 were made in the late 90's and reconstruction of those trams began in the early 2000s. That time the idea about raising the voltage was still in the play, although there were already doubts about the voltage raise being worth it.
If you want to make a very fast ride, just disable ATB/ZUB, put trottle to 1.00 and enjoy.
In my Avatar is a Logo of a Prague metro.
Sorry for my bad English. I am Czech and i am learning English
User avatar
brozma
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 16:27
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by brozma »

NJTFAN1235! wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 21:38 Wow! Prague has a losh darn lots of tram lines, how many are there? in Philadelphia, there are 6 tram lines in our city. Also, nice job on the project. I've always wondered to myself about these. You did a spectacular job making these!
Normally, the Prague tram network has 26 lines. You can see the tram network scheme with all tram lines, incl. metro network, below.
Image
Alternatively, if you can't see the picture properly, click (tap) on this link and zoom in: https://www.dpp.cz/cs/data/Dopravn%C3%A ... .03.06.png
Last edited by brozma on 17 Mar 2024, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
If you want to make a very fast ride, just disable ATB/ZUB, put trottle to 1.00 and enjoy.
In my Avatar is a Logo of a Prague metro.
Sorry for my bad English. I am Czech and i am learning English
User avatar
brozma
Posts: 489
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 16:27
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Re: HTM GTL8 tram

Post by brozma »

RotterdamMetroLover wrote: 17 Mar 2024, 21:45 CKD Tatra T3. ;) It was based on the PCC, but for the eastern part of europe back before the 1990s.
Exactly. It was just inspired by PCC. Tatra T1 and Tatra T2 can be considered direct copies of PCC. Just Google the pictures of Tatra T1 and Tatra T2, and look at their front mask. I believe, you'll get the point right away.
If you want to make a very fast ride, just disable ATB/ZUB, put trottle to 1.00 and enjoy.
In my Avatar is a Logo of a Prague metro.
Sorry for my bad English. I am Czech and i am learning English
Post Reply